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“than five and not more than ten persons including the Registrar-General, who shall be ex officio the President, and also the Member of Council for the time being representing the Chinese, who shall be ex officio the Vice-President. The first Permanent Board of Direction shall consist of the persons whose names are contained in the schedule to this Ordinance. Vacancies in this Board shall be filled up from time to time by the Governor, who may call upon the continuing members of the Board for their recommendation. All appointments to the Board shall be held only during the Governor's pleasure.” Now the objections to the constitution of the Society as provided by this Section are twofold. First of all they object to the two Committees, the permanent Committee and the elective Committee, because they say it may lead to confusion. Secondly, they object to the Registrar-General being a member and president of the Society for some other reason which I will come to by and by. One of the reasons why it is necessary to have two Committees is that there ought to be experienced men to supervise the action of the elective board from year to year and who may constantly exercise a supervision of their act... The hon. member who represents the Chamber of Commerce objects to this because he says it will lead to confusion and he proposes a remedy for this arrangement. He says, let us have a permanent Board for six years, of which two members should go off every year, and then if a sub-committee is necessary to carry out the daily routine of the work let that sub-committee be appointed by this permanent Board. Now, I confess I do not see any difference at all between these two schemes. I think both of them require two committees; in one they are called the permanent committee and the elective committee and in the other the permanent committee and the sub-committee—a difference in the name. They will be elected annually and if one arrangement is likely to lead to confusion I am sure that the other would. So possibly this detail as regards the constitution of the committee is not of much importance.
But the second objection, that the Registrar-General should not be a member and president of the permanent Board requires a good deal more consideration. Now I would first of all, in order to make hon. members understand the question before them, give the reason why we wish the Registrar-General to be a member and president of the permanent Board. The first reason is that the permanent Committee, as you will see in the schedule, consists entirely of Chinese gentlemen, and although some of them have been in the Colony for a large number of years and no doubt know a good deal about things, still in some cases they would not have a perfect knowledge of the principles of English law nor are they presumed to know perfectly well the English way of doing things in all cases and under all circumstances. Consequently they would require some supervision, guidance, and advice. I ask from whom can they get that advice and guidance better than from the Registrar-General? They have always been associated with the Registrar-General, they have worked with the Registrar-General ever since the Society was established, although by the rules and regulations approved by the Secretary of State they are not at all obliged to consult him in the management of their Society.
But I say they have always been associated with the Registrar-General, and they have always found him give them good advice and guidance, and he, on the other hand, has always found them helpful and willing to render assistance. They have agreed together for thirteen years, and what is the reason now for separating them? I would venture to say that a very strong argument is required by the opponents of this section before they will induce this Council to alter the constitution of this Society otherwise than as it stands in that section. The second reason is that if the Registrar-General is a member of the Board it will save a lot of time and meetings and correspondence.
Supposing the Registrar-General is not a member of this Board but has a power of veto on the doings of this Society. What would be the result? In every case the Committee would have to send in their decision to the Registrar-General, then the Registrar-General having inquired into everything, would have to correspond and ascertain the reason why they arrived at such a decision; otherwise, the Registrar-General cannot be said to exercise his power of veto in an intelligent manner. Sometimes he might have to reassemble the Committee of the Society to discuss with them the various points. With him at the head of the Committee, however, all this would be simplified.
The third reason would be this: it does away with the necessity of the Registrar-General consulting with his clerks and others in reference to the affairs of the Society when it differs with the Registrar-General, and there is no doubt that he cannot carry out his duty or exercise his veto in an intelligent manner without some advice from the Chinese. (The REGISTRAR-GENERAL: Hear, hear.) And if he were deprived primarily of the direct advice of the permanent Committee it seems to me that he would have to go somewhere or elsewhere for the advice. Now, he could only resort to his Chinese clerks or some Chinese private gentleman who came to his office—the very thing that I have continuously held to be unwise on the part of the Registrar-General.
The hon. member for the Chamber of Commerce quoted one of my speeches on the subject in which I spoke against the advisability of the Registrar-General getting people, Chinese gentlemen, individually and privately, into his office asking them their opinions on certain subjects. The quotation is a very long one. I do not propose to read it, but it is found in the report on page 13. Upon that the hon. member seemed to think that the Registrar-General should not consult the Chinese, but that he should be outside and above them. He misunderstood me and took just the opposite view to that which I wished to convey in that speech. I meant to say that the Registrar-General should not ask Chinese singly and individually to come to his office, but I never intended that the Registrar-General should not have the Chinese assembled in his office and discuss matters openly.
That has been done, though not in this Committee, because we have not yet appointed a Committee, and I do not know whether in former times it has been done, but I do know since I have been a member of the District Watchmen Committee that we discuss and decide by the vote of the majority, and I venture to believe that though sometimes the Registrar-General has been in the minority he thinks that his dignity has not been affected and that it was not derogatory to his high position to be outvoted. (The REGISTRAR-GENERAL: Hear, hear.) I have found that Committee a most convenient and workable body.
Now, I do not know whether the hon. member for the Chamber of Commerce really desires that all the questions and dealings of this Society should be subjected to the decisive and final veto of the Registrar-General. We have in this Colony a Governor and we always look upon him as the representative of H.M. the Queen, and as Chinese subjects here, and also as subjects of H.M. the Queen, it is only fair to suppose that they would always desire to submit the final decision of their differences to the Governor alone.
And it is a matter of very great regret, when I find that a gentleman who at one time was very strong upon the power, the too great power, of the Registrar-General and who told the Chinese, myself included, that the Registrar-General had too much power, and that the Registrar-General is the uncrowned King of the Chinese in Hongkong—(laughter)—and that virtually the Registrar-General is the Governor of this Colony—(laughter)—
The REGISTRAR-GENERAL: Name, name.
Hon. HO KAI: Well, sir, I do not wish to name, but I think the hon. member for the Chamber of Commerce understands to whom I allude. (Laughter.)
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD: I do not know, sir. (To the Hon. Ho Kai)—perhaps you want me to agree with you.
Hon. HO KAI: If the hon. member denies it I can only say that my hearing faculties must be wanting attention from the doctor, and I would remind the hon. member that not only in my hearing, but in the hearing of the senior unofficial member, such conversation did take place. I am sure that whatever the exact words were his opinion was unmistakable—that the Registrar-General had too much power and that the Chinese should communicate direct with the Governor and not through the Registrar-General, that they should not be governed by the Registrar-General, but send their communications addressed to the Colonial Secretary's Office and that it would be a good thing if the Registrar-General's Department was abolished altogether.
How strange, sir, it is that one who has advocated all this sort of thing should turn round now and wish to place the Chinese, to use his own words, under the thumb of the Registrar-General.
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD: Not more than in the past.
Hon. HO KAI: That is the very reason why we should better their condition now by this Ordinance. They are used to being subjected, but that is no reason why they should not be improved in their position now. Because they have been subjected for a large number of years to the yoke of the Registrar-General, much more should we wish them to escape from that position, and though to a certain extent still governed by the Registrar-General to be directly under His Excellency the Governor. (Hear, hear.) I say it is very strange now that such a change of opinion and front should be observable in hon. members of this Council.
Now, I simply wonder whether it is caused by order, pressure, or official influence. (Laughter.) It is a curious thing to note, and I hope it is not attributable to any of those causes I have suggested. It seems to me that we have recently talked a great deal too much about unofficial majority and adequate representation in Council. If this is to be the result of such agitation for more adequate representation and an unofficial majority, then Heaven save us from such agitators. (Loud laughter.) I think that our leading Chinese would prefer to be placed continually under an intelligent official rule rather than be placed under the unreasonable and illiberal treatment of an unofficial regime.
Now, sir, what reason have those who are opposed to this section to grudge the small satisfaction to the Chinese of having an unofficial majority in that permanent committee of the Po Leung Kok? I can find none at all. I do not dare, I do not wish, to think that these gentlemen despise the Chinese and have no confidence in them as was suggested by my hon. friend on my left (the Registrar-General). I hope not, but if it is I hope those gentlemen will have the boldness to say so and the Chinese will know what to think of them and I as their representative in Council would know what course to steer in the future with regard to them. (The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Good.)
Now, sir, with regard to the objection that the Chinese Authorities would identify the action of the Po Leung Kuk,
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“than five and not more than ten persons includ- "ing the Registrar-Geroral, who shall be ex "officio the President, and also the Member of "Council for the time balug representing the "Chinese, who shall be ex oficio the Vice-Pre- "silent. The rst Permanent Board of Direc *tion shall consist of the persons whose names "are contained in the schedule to this Ordinance. *Vacancies ín this Board shall be filled up from "tim to time by the Governor, who may call "upon the continuing members of the Board for "their raos u mondation. All appointments to "the Board shall be held only during the Go. "vernor's pleasure." Now the objectious to the constitution of the Society as provided by this Section are twofold. First of all they object to the two Committees. the par- manent Committee and the elective Committee, bacause they say it may lead to confusion. Sao. ondly, they object to the Registrar-General being a member and president of the Society for some other reason which I will come to by and by. Ono of the reasons why it is necessary to have two Committees is that there ought to be ex- parieneed men to supervise the action of the elective board from year to year and who may constantly exercise a supervision of their act... The hon. member who represents the Chamber of Commerce objects to this be cause he says it will lead to confusion and he proposes a remedy for this arrangement. He says, let us have a permanent Board for six years, of which two members should go off avery year, and then if a sub-committee is necessary to carry out the daily routine of the work let that sub-committed be appointed by this per- manent Board. Now. I confess I do not see any difference at all between these two schemes. I think both of them require two com- mittees; in one they are called the permanent coumittes and the elective committee and in the other the permanent com nittee and the anb-com. mittee a difference in the name. They will be elected annually and if one arrangement is like ly to lead to confusion I am sure that the other would. So possibly this detail as regards the constitution of the committee is not of much im- portunoe. But the second objection, that the Registrar-General should not be a mem- her and president of the permanent Bard requires a good deal more consideration. Now I would first of all, in order to make | hou, members understand the question ba fore them, give the reason why we wish the Registrar-General to be a member and pre- sident of the permanent Board. The first res- son is that the permanent Committee, as you will see in the son dule, consists entirely of Chí- ness gentlemen, and although some of them have been in the Colony for a large nam. ber of years and no doubt know a good deal about things. still in some cases they would not have a perfect knowledge of the prin- tiples of English law nor are they presumed
Sava
to know perfectly well the English way of do ing things in all cases and under all "eirean. stances. Consequently they would require some supervision, gui lanes, and advice. I ask from whom can they get that ance and alries better than from the Re gistrar General ? They have always been as- sociated with the Registrar-Goveril, they have worked with the gistrar-General ever since the Society was established, although by the rules and regulations approved by the Secretary of State they are not at all obliged to consult him in the management of their Society. But I say they have always been associated with the Registrar-General, and they have always found him give them good advice and guidano, and he, on the other hand, has always found them helpful and willing to render assistance. They have agreed together for thirteen years. and what is the reason now for septratia them? I would venture to sav that 3019 very strong argument is required by the oppoo-uts of this section before they will induce this Council to alter the constitution of this Society otherwise than as it stands in that section. The second reason is that if the Rgistrar General is a member of the Board it will
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and correspondenca time and meetings. Supposiar tho Registrar-Gono- ral is not a member of this Board but has a power of veto on the doings of this Society. What would be the result? In every case the Committee would bare to send in their decision to the Registrar-General, then the Registrar- General having inquired into everything. would bave to correspond and ascertain the reason why they arrived at such a decision; otherwise, the Registrar-General cannot be said to exercise his power of vato in an intelligent manner. Sometimes be might have to reassemble the Committee of the Society to discuss with them the various points. With him at the head of the Committee, however, all this would be simplified. The third reason would be this: it des away with the necessity of the Re gistrar-General consulting with his olerks and others in reference to the affairs of the Soc ety when it differs with the Registrar General, and there is no doubt that he cannot carry out bis duty or exercise bis vete in an intelligent manuer without some advice from the Chinese. (The REGISTRAR-GENERAL Hear, hear.) And if he were dep irad primarily of the direct ad- vice of the permanent Committee it seems to me that he would bare to go somewhere or elsewhere for the advice, Now, he could only re- sort to his Chinese clerks or some Chinese pri
This is vate gentleman who came to his office. the very thing that I have contianonsly held to be aswise on the part of the Registrar- General. The hon member for the Chamber of Commerce quoted one of my sposobna oa the subject in which I spoke against the ad· visability of the Registrar-General getting
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people, Chinese gentlemen, individually and privately, into his office asking them their pinions on certain subjects. The quotation is very long one. I do not propose to read it, but it is found in the report on page 13. Upon that the hon. member seemed to think that the Registrar-General should not consult the Chinese, but that he should be outside and above them. He misunderstood me and took just the opposite view to that which I wished to convey in that speech. I meant to say that the Registrar-General should not ask Chinese singly and individually to come to his office, but I never intended that the Registrar-General should not have the Chinese assembled in his office and discuss matters openly. That has been done, though not in this Committee, because wa have not yet appointed a Committee, and 1 do not know whether in former times it has been done, but I do know since I have been a member of the District Watohmen Committee that discuss and decide by the vote of the ma- jority, and I venture to believe that though sometimes the Registrar-General has been in the minority he thinks that his dignity has not been affected and that it was not derogatory to his high position to be outvoted. (The REGISTRAR- GENERAL-Hear, hear.) I have found that ommittee a most convenient and workable body. Now, I do not know whether the hon. member for the Chamber of Commerce really desires that all the questions and dealings of this Society should be subjected to the decisive and final veto of the Registrar-General. We have in this colony a Governor and we always look upon him as the representative of H.M. the Queen, and as Chinese subjects here, and also as subjects of H.M. the Queen, it is only fair to suppose that they would always desire to submit the final decision of their differences to the Governor alone. And it is a matter of very great regret, when I find that a gentleman who at one time was very strong apon the power, the too great power, of the Registrar- General and who told the Chinose, myself in cluded, that the Registrar-General had toe much power, and that the Registrar-General is the uncrowned King of the Chinese in Hong- kong-laughter) and that virtually the Regis fer-General is the Governor of this Colony- (langhter)-
The ROISTRAR-GENERAL-Name, name, Hou. Ho KAI-Woll, sir, I do not wish to name, but I think the hon. member for the Chamber of Commerce auderstands to whom I allude. (Laughter.)
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD-T do not know, sir, (To the Hon. Ho Kai)-perhaps you want me to agree with you.
Hon. Ho KAI-If the hon. member denies it I can only say that my heuring facul ties must be wanting attention from the doctor, and I would remind the bon. member that not only in my hearing, but in the bearing of the senior unofficial member, such conversa.
tion did take place. I am sure that whatever the exact words were his opinion was unmistak- ablo that the Registrar-General had too unch power and that the Chinese should communicate direct with the Governor and not through the Registrar-General, that they should not be governed by the Registrar-General, but send their combunications addressed to the Co- louial Secretary's Office and that it would be a good thing if the Registrar-Gene. ral's Department was abolished altogether. How strange, sir, it is that one who has advocat- ed all this sort of thing should turn round now and wish to place the Chinese, to ase his own words, under the thumb of the Registrar-General. Hon. T. H. WHITEREAD-Not more than in the past.
Hon. Ho KAL--That is the very reason why we should better their condition now by this Ordinance. They are used to being subjected, but that is no reason why they should not be improved in their position now, Because they have been subjected for a large number of years to the yoke of the Registrar-General, much more should we wish them to escape from that position, and though to a certain extent still governed by the Registrar-General to be directly under His Excelleuoy the Governor, (Hear, hoar.) I say it is very strange BOW that such a change of opinion and froat should be observable in hon. members of this Council. Now, I simply wonder whether it is caused by order, pressure, or official influence. (Laughter.) It is a curious thing to note, and I hope it is not attributable to any of those causes I have suggested. It seems to me that we have re- cently talked a great deal too much about au- official majority and adequate representation in Council. If this is to be the result of such agit- ation for more adequate representation and an unofficial majority, then Heaven save us from such agitators. (Load laughter.) I think that our lead- ing Chinese would prefer to be placed continu- ally under an intelligent official rule rather than be placed under the unreasonable and illiberal treatment of an unofficial regime. Now, sir, what reason have those who are opposed to this section to grudge the small satisfaction to the Chinese of having an unofficial majority in that permanent committee of the Po Leung Kok? I can find none at all. I do not duro, I do not wish, to think that these gentle- man despise the Chinese and have no fidence in them as was suggested by my hon. friend on my left (the Registrar-General) I hope not, but if it is I hope those gentlemen will have the boldness to say so und the Chinese will know what to think of them and I as their representative in Conseil would know what course to steer in the future with regard to them. (The COLONIAL SECRETARY-Good.)--- Now. sir, with regard to the objection that the Chinese Authorities would identify the action of the Po Leung Kak, if the Registrar-
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